Traci:

Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Leading the Frontline sponsored by Legion.

Don’t forget to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you’re catching this episode, whether you’re watching, listening, or however we are reaching your ears and your eyes. Make sure you do that, because then you’ll be the first to know every time there’s a new episode. And I think that’s a nice way to live if you ask me.

So this episode, I have the esteemed Cathy Hotka with me. I see you laughing when I say ‘esteemed,’ but you really are esteemed.

I have been following you on LinkedIn probably for, I don’t even know, a number of years at this point, and this might be one of the few times that you and I are connecting in this way. And I’m really excited.

I feel a little starstruck, and I am not afraid to admit that. But I think you are you are certainly, as I mentioned, esteemed Cathy, and so I’m really excited for everyone listening or watching to learn more about you today.

And so, everyone, let me introduce you to Cathy. She created the NRF CIO Council in 1996 and has been fostering retail relationships ever since.

Recognized as a community leader, she enjoys relationships with thousands of retailers and has worked with nearly every major technology company. After working at NRF as the vice president of IT, she created the Store Operations Council, advised commercial entities and universities, and managed hundreds of discussions with retail leaders around the country.

This is why you’re esteemed, Cathy. Welcome to the podcast.

Cathy: Thank you so much for being here. Thanks, Traci.

This is where you get the good information. You have to talk to actual real live retailers.

Traci:

That’s right. And as a former retailer myself, I really can resonate with what your entire career has been about and what, you know, at least from what I’ve just read, what it seems to be a passion of yours.

So I really would love to kind of kick us off with questions that listeners are totally familiar with me asking. But I do get to put you in the hot seat, which is a very exciting thing.

The first question that I have for you is, what was your first hourly job?

Cathy:

Oh, I worked retail, actually. Love it.

Yeah. I worked for a traditional department store in Downtown Washington, DC.

And, it was really interesting because there was no inventory control at all thousands of years ago when I was doing this, and so at the end of the season, we used to enter, we used to, inventory the bathing suits, and it was hilarious. We wrote it all down, and somebody would say, You know, those one pieces sold out right away.

I was thinking: wouldn’t you want to know that during the season, not after? But I was new. They didn’t want to listen to me.

Traci:Well, and look at you now. And who knows? I mean, maybe maybe that was the question that they needed to hear, that maybe a few years later someone was like, you know what, someone asked me that once, and now it makes total sense that we’re actually talking about this, and we’re doing inventory, and we have RFID scanners, and we get, you know, real time information, and how amazing is that? That’s so interesting.

Did you, did you enjoy, like, retail right away? Did you feel that that was kind of the starting point or the catalyst to the rest of your career?

Cathy: Yes. Because you’re working with the public.

And yes, I had several different positions in retail. You’re dealing with many different kinds of people.

Sometimes it’s the best day of their lives. Sometimes it’s the worst day of their life.

You know, as a frontline employee, you need to be inventive, you need to be quick on your feet, and you know, most of all, you need to be kind.

Traci:

So true.

And that kindness helps build resilience in dealing with the public, which, to your point, could be their best or worst day. And frankly, it could be our best or worst days as the frontline employee as well.

And you kind of can’t have a bad day when you’re a frontline employee. Just saying.

No, you can’t. You can’t.

You just can’t. And if you do have a bad day, you know, it’s not gonna be great.

So thank you for for sharing your first hourly job. That’s fabulous.

I I am curious, you know, of course, thinking, putting this into perspective, right, that you started in that department store and now a number of years later, based on your bio, you’ve created some amazing opportunities for other retailers to connect and learn from one another, and even just understanding, you know, the the council, you know, the NRF council in in 1996, all of that understanding. You know, it’s easy when we look at it from a bird’s eye view that it’s like, oh, yeah, of course.

This is what Cathy’s done because she started in retail and this is what she’s passionate about. But I’d love to understand where this is our second hot seat question for you.

If you can share a little bit more about your background and what ultimately landed you in these types of roles that you’ve held in the last several years.

Cathy:

I grew up in politics.

I worked in the United States Senate. I worked in the White House.

When you’re in positions like that, your main job is to constituents: taking care of them, answering them promptly, providing good information, and meeting their needs. And so that kind of mindset is very conducive to working in an association.

I’ve worked for four different associations. At an association, you have constituents; they have needs, and your job is to fill those needs as quickly as you can.

And, you know, it occurred to me after a while that if you’re the chief whatever officer of something in retail, you’re the only one. So, you know, when I was working with CIOs, I realized that each company had its own CIO.

So when that person needs advice, to whom do they turn? And the answer needed to be another CIO at a different company that does not overlap. So there was no reason why Home Depot shouldn’t be able to talk to Abercrombie and Fitch about an issue that they were having.

It’s not a competitive advantage. It’s simply good quality advice.

And so I’ve been putting together those peer groups now for a long time.

Traci:

I love that.

And what a great example too, because this idea of cross-company mentorship is actually really important. And I think, to your point, there isn’t a competitive advantage issue or circumstance here.

There’s simply knowledge sharing. And I think something that comes up for me a lot in HR is that people sometimes, just generally speaking, and of course generalizing is not great, but just, you know, we’ll go with it for now, that generally speaking people are afraid of knowledge sharing sometimes because they’re concerned that at some level they’re going to lose their competitive edge or that they’re going to lose something in that knowledge sharing, even when it’s on the same team.

And the reality is that there is so much value in sharing information and knowledge. And to your point, the closer you get to the sun, as I like to call it, the more alone you are.

Cathy:

Right? There’s, yeah. Had a really interesting experience.

I used to work for Rilla, which has a leadership forum in January, which basically means they get a really nice hotel, they put a bunch of chief executives in there, and let them talk to each other. I was present for a meeting where the then head of Walmart stood up and took fifteen minutes and said, these are the things we’re going to be doing next year and we’re going into China and we’re doing this technology and we’re introducing this new kind of product and blah blah and then he sits down, everybody applauds and he sits down.

After that, the guy who was running Target at the time stands up and says, So this is what we’re going to be doing at Target and he’s talking about China and Mexico and different products, and we’re going to be partnering with this designer. Even when people are speaking at a really granular level, you can’t catch up on them like that.

So telling the truth about what you’re doing is not giving away competitive advantage because your competitors are not going to be able to catch up as a result. So it’s really quality knowledge sharing is intensely valuable.

And the fact that the CIO Council is around thirty years later at NRF shows how valuable that has been. Absolutely.

Traci:

And kudos to you for for seeing the opportunity there. Because, again, I I think it is, you know, it was an an unchartered territory at that time, I can imagine, based on what you’ve shared.

And there’s what you had shared even before we started recording, that there were a handful of people who didn’t even think that it would take off, that there would be any value in this. And I think it definitely speaks to your ability to be a visionary, really, in this space as a way to kind of see, again, this opportunity for bringing people together and allowing these retailer leaders to learn from one another.

And so, I think this is actually a perfect opportunity for me to ask you a little bit more about how you lead, because naturally, we are seeing that kind of displayed in some of these examples and the background that you’ve shared with us. But how would you describe your leadership style? How has it evolved over time, especially with creating the CIO Council and getting further and further involved in retailers?

Cathy:

That’s easy.

So when you’re in politics, you’re automatically around the smartest people in the room. Not going to sit here and drop names, but I have known a lot of very, very famous people.

To make these communities work, you find the smartest people you can find, and let them do the talking. So while I’m a figure in the industry, I am nobody’s retail expert.

That’s not my job. I’m an organizer.

So what I do is get the location, poll people to find out what they think the key issues are, then bring them into the room and let them do it. And the Store Operations Council, of which Legion has been a part for many years, is a good example of that.

We’ve got, we’ll have a department store, we’ll have a huge grocery chain, we’ll have a mom and pop, all these different formats and segments in the room and they’re all talking about the same thing. So, you know, we, at the last one, we had a grocery chain talking about something and the company that kept coming back and adding to the discussion was a luxury jeweler.

It doesn’t matter what the segment is, they all have the same issues and they all go to how they best serve the customer and honor the associate in the process.

Traci:

That’s fabulous.

I definitely want to come to this, topic around frontline worker in all of this, because to your point, and it’s very interesting, your background and kind of starting out in politics really leaning in there and how that’s shaped your own experience. And I wonder, thinking about the frontline, how companies that are a part of the Store Operations Council, which are seeing the value of these knowledge-sharing moments, are able to impact their front-line workers.

Because sometimes it can be difficult to kind of see the connection for people, for leaders who maybe are multiple levels removed from the frontline, and how those things actually do have a direct correlation. So I’m curious from your perspective.

Cathy:

I’m always interested in what people are trying to do. And so I’ll get in touch with them before the meeting and say, what do you think the big topics are going to be? And they’ll tell me, and I’ll think that those are the big topics.

Maybe not. So at the last meeting, which we held in Orlando because we bounced from city to city, it turned out the stickiest thing they wanted to talk about was completely remaking the retail experience.

So there was one quick-serve restaurant chain there, and they were saying, We don’t want our associates behind the counter. We don’t want them divorced from the customer.

We want them on the floor with the customer, making it happen. And so, you know, somebody else would go, Oh, us too.

And you know, compare notes on how they’re doing it. Are they using technology to make that happen? Are they remaking the way the cash wrap works? Are they using handhelds? There are lots of different approaches to these things, and you know somebody like me can’t orchestrate the conversation.

I can give them ideas but they’re going to take it and run. That’s where the value is.

And you should see people at meetings, they’re furiously writing. Say that one more time.

Traci:

Yes. Wow.

That’s amazing. I mean, I always try to, at least in my mind, it helps me when I relate back to my own experiences, when a guest comes on the podcast and shares something like that.

For example, I always say, first of all, my first job was on the books, because I was a babysitter, but you know, off the record, even though it’s officially on the record, I was working retail. And when I graduated from college, I decided I wanted to stay in retail, and I worked in Target as an in-store HR manager.

And that’s where I always say I sharpened my knives at Target. And I’m sure given your experience, you know a ton of Target execs, former, present, and people who have moved on to other companies or, you know, whatever that might kind of look like.

And I really do credit Target, considering the magnitude of the business that they do, with equipping me not only as a manager at that time, but as someone who was on the floor with the skills and the know-how to be able to not only service the guests or the customers, but also to meet the expectations that the business had. And now, kind of fast forward after working for other retailers, and now, you know, being at Legion and in a kind of a pseudo supporting retailers kind of space within this technology, there is so much influence that every single person, I think, in retail can have that ultimately affects the frontline worker and ultimately then affects and impacts the customer.

And so when I reflect on what you’re saying as far as having these, you know, senior leaders in a room sharing sharing notes, swapping ideas, learning from one another, seeing the opportunities, and then relating it back to my own experience as having been a frontline worker, having been a frontline manager, there’s so much that I didn’t even necessarily consider until now that happened in the background. Right? That ultimately, like, meeting the CEO of Target, and I remember thinking, oh my god, this is the biggest day of my life.

Right? And, you know, you zoom out, and you think about that, and you’re like, yeah, imagine being that frontline employee and you get that opportunity with someone at the C-level, C-suite, and you see the impact that their decision has or that your own role has on them. And it’s really quite interesting.

And I think for listeners who are maybe even outside of retail, they might not necessarily think that way because maybe they’re just consumers and they’re shopping and they’re like, yeah, oh, I have all these sales that I get to shop. But there is there’s so much that goes into that one interaction.

Cathy:

Well, it is. And that’s where the front line comes in, because you’re watching ads for Target on TV.

You might have ads on the radio. You’re getting a promotion in the mail.

Bottom line is when you walk into that store, you’re not dealing with, you know, the Brian Cornell of doing it. You’re dealing with a frontline worker and that frontline worker has either done a great job and it looks really good in there and they can find what you want, or there are stock outs and problems.

And so the person who’s not making terribly much money has to be continually taken care of, scheduled correctly, and compensated correctly. And if they’re not, the consumer’s reaction to the brand might not be so great.

So those people are very important.

Traci:

Yes.

It’s so true. It’s so true.

And I really do hope that frontline employees see their impact at some level. I hope that even their leaders help them to see their impact.

I think that’s where true mentorship comes in. And when you think about companies like Target, Home Depot, Lowe’s, and Walmart, where leadership development is so it’s like a science.

I’m still, to this day, almost ten years later after my first role at Target, I think about and credit Target with so much that it really was just like a perfect formula for how do we set people up for success? How do they start off in a new store with new employees? Or if they are a new employee, whether seasonal or otherwise, how do we set them up for success and help them to be as effective as possible? It’s incredible. And it’s

Cathy:

It takes an investment, but it’s very important.

So I think people who don’t know Walmart just assume that Walmart’s kind of a place for people to go who can’t really get a good job and, you know, it’s going to wind up working there maybe for a while. Walmart has been tirelessly educating its employees, putting them through a sort of secondary school where they graduate, wear a cap and gown, they get a diploma.

It may be the only diploma they’ve ever gotten. It’s very meaningful to people who want to advance themselves, make more money, and have a greater impact.

And you know, I would encourage any company that thinks its associate development programs might not be up to snuff to check out what Walmart has done. They may not have the same resources as Walmart, but honestly, they have done a wonderful job.

Traci :

They really have. I have friends from, you know, past Target colleagues who have gone to Walmart and they’re store managers, or they’re, you know, at the executive level in store or otherwise.

And it’s really, really fascinating when you’re in on the inside to see just exactly what is happening in Walmart and other large retailers. And it’s I think one of the things that I take away from what you’re sharing there is that this sense of fulfillment and satisfaction that employees can have direct from their employers is so profound, and that these retailers who are, you know, giants in this world, let alone in this country, they’ve gotten they’ve gotten it right for so many years because they figured out that that satisfaction at the hourly level, at the employee level, is so critical to their success.

And so when we think about, and when you think about, actually, the future of frontline work, I’m curious if you see any other trends that might be shaping the future of the frontline, whether it’s leadership or the hourly employee. Is it something like this, you know, leadership development or fulfillment at the employee level?What does that look like for you?

Cathy:

Well, there are a lot of different pieces of that.

But one thing that stands out to me is the companies that listen to their frontline employees. They’ve got suggestion boxes, they reward people for making suggestions, folks are added to a weekly sales call, you know, a frontline worker in the men’s department is on a call with leadership saying, here’s how we had a problem and this is what we did to address it, you know, on a budget of zero basically.

Know: if you’ve got those smart people in your company, listen to them. Find out what they think.

Traci:

Love that. The the I wanna hone in on the word listen because that is sometimes a word that everyone thinks that they are really good at, but not always.

Right? And what you said around when you if if companies have smart people, which we know many companies have smart people working for them, within them, that we should listen to them. That is that is kind of like the core of what makes the world go round.

Right? Like, hear thought leaders all the time say hire people who are smarter than you. Make sure that your team is comprised of people who think differently from you.

And all of those things are important because they help to, I think, shape and create better and more, maybe more robust ideas and new ideas. And so to your point, this being kind of something that shapes the future of the frontline, it’s great because it’s not so hard to do.

If you ask questions and you get those answers, you gotta do something with it.

Cathy:

Well, and you know, by actively listening, you can actually stave off some problems.

A couple years ago, there were several companies, no names please, that were having issues where their employees were griping about them. They’d set up, a private chat where they could complain to each other or God forbid they’d set up a subreddit where they could complain about their company.

If those associates want to talk to each other, put it out on your intranet. Make it their place to talk about your intellectual property online, and ensure that management reviews those comments and responds, so people feel they’re being listened to.

It’s important.

Traci:

Absolutely.

I’m curious, why do you think more companies don’t do that? Maybe they’re not as large and they haven’t, they haven’t experienced a problem like this. But you know, happen.

There’s a rollout of a product that goes badly. Or there’s a rollout of a technology, God forbid, that just doesn’t work.

You need to be able to anticipate what you can do if there’s a problem.

Cathy:

Yeah, it’s true.

This actually comes back perfectly full circle to your first hourly job: while working in retail, you developed a sense of resilience and the ability to withstand the trials and tribulations that come with working with the public. Right? And certainly that obviously translated throughout the rest of your career.

But to your point, think when we, again, when we think about shaping the future of the front line, it’s not necessarily that we have to reinvent the wheel, it’s that we have to see exactly what’s in front of us and address what’s in front of us. And that maybe it’s a little scary, maybe it’s a little nerve racking to, you know, take on this daunting task of actually listening and hearing and responding to what employees might be saying, but in doing so, there’s this whole new opportunity or window of opportunity for businesses to then, you know, not just benefit from, but actually see their employees benefit from also, which is really a wonderful thing.

And if you could give one piece of advice to leaders who are managing frontline teams, what would you say that advice would be? Servant leadership. So, I have a quick story.

He’s been deceased for a while now, but the former CIO of Target, Paul Singer, was working for a chain retailer, and they put him in charge of their auto service base about which he knew nothing. He knew nothing.

So he would go into, you know, some store’s auto service bay and say, “All right, I’m now in charge. What do you need? What can I be doing for you?” My job is to make your life easier.

And they always came back to the same things. They said, It’s dingy in here, women hate bringing their car here, there are no magazines, there’s no coffee, can’t we make it look a little nicer? And he said after like four or five of these visits, he said, okay, went back to corporate and said, all right, we need to invest in some magazines for women, we need to put a TV in there, and we need to clean the chairs and get a coffee machine.

Well, all of a sudden, it was way better. Why? Not because he imposed his will.

He asked them what they needed. And that’s the most effective kind of leadership you can get.

Traci: I love that. I love that.

Cathy:

It’s again, I mean, I think it really helps us to come full circle that it doesn’t have to be; we don’t have to overcomplicate things. We can really just think about: okay, what are the fundamentals for driving and engaging a team that feels fulfilled, wants to be here, and does the work they feel satisfied with? And I love that story, and I was giggling when you said we need to clean the chairs because as a person in general, it’s like, yeah, of course, you wanna sit on chairs that are clean.

But sometimes businesses get away from us. Like, our operations get away from us, and we don’t think about the fundamental thing, whatever that thing might be, that ultimately does impact that end user, that employee, that customer, whomever it might be.

Traci:

So I love that story. Thank you for sharing.

And what a legacy to leave.

Cathy:

You know, he inspired a lot of people.

And basically, everybody wanted to get his opinion because he was the CIO of a very large company. Everywhere he went, he told people, Listen to your people. Those people who are on the floor all day long talking to customers know what’s going on.

Be sure that you ask them what they need.

Traci:

Love that.

Best advice ever. Well, Cathy, I have kept you in the hot seat for a long time at this point.

And so I only have a couple of questions left for you, which is actually, technically, only one. So I wish I could keep you for more.

It’s only one, which is where people can follow you? Where can they connect with you? Where can they maybe even get involved if they are retailers themselves and they want to have just as much of an impact as someone else within these councils that you’ve helped with?

Cathy:

What a great question, thank you.

Thanks to my husband, I have an unusual last name. So if you want to find me, just Google HOTKA, H O T K A.

I’m pretty easy to find. I’ve got a lot of things going out on LinkedIn and, yes, we’ve got meetings of retailers at cities, so we get the New Yorkers together, we get the Nashville people together, and the Store Operations Council is going to have two meetings this year where Legion will be.

We’re doing one in New Orleans next year, and we’re also going to London to start one in the UK. We’ll all be there.

Amazing. We’re global.

Traci:

It’s all global. I love that.

Cathy, thank you so much for joining the podcast and for helping to lead the front line, as we like to say. And so for everyone listening, we will have all of the places where you can connect with Cathy in our show notes.

And don’t forget to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you’re catching this episode. Thank you for tuning in.

Cathy, thank you so much for your time.